Ramli John on How to Advanced Onboarding: From Aha to Activation

Ramli John, a podcaster, author, and content director at AppQues, discusses his journey in product-led growth (PLG) and user onboarding.

Welcome to the second episode of Smooth Operators podcast, where we get into the intricacies of growth, app stacks, plugins, and everything in between.

Join Anirudh Madhavan as he sits down with Ramli John. He is a podcaster, author, frequent speaker, and content team leader and also the Managing Director at ProductLed, where he collaborates with industry giants like Mixpanel, Microsoft, and Ubisoft to supercharge their growth strategies.

With a passion for education, Ramli has trained hundreds of the world's fastest-growing product-led companies, helping them elevate their user onboarding experiences and convert more users into lifelong customers. He is also the bestselling author of 'Product-Led Onboarding,' a must-read for anyone looking to excel in this space.

We're thrilled to have him on the show today to share his insights and expertise. So, without further ado, let's welcome Ramli John to the Smooth Operators podcast.

Ani: Can you tell our listeners about yourself and your current role?

Ramli John: Hi, I'm Ramli John. I'm passionate about growth and content. I'm the Content Director at AppQues, creating thought leadership content on onboarding and product adoption. Before AppQues, I wrote "Product-Led Onboarding," which focuses on the best ways to onboard users. I've been in the SaaS industry for almost 15 years, specializing in growth and content.

Ani: Amazing. You have a diverse background in marketing from startups. What initially drew you into the field of product growth?

Ramli John: I worked for many product-led companies before the term was popular. They had free trials and freemium offerings, which provided more data as users could log in for free. My interest in onboarding started when I was working in growth for a SaaS company in the Bay Area. I was responsible for getting new users to sign up, but I noticed many weren't sticking around.

“A stat from Intercom found that 60-80% of users sign up once and don't return.”

This led me to focus on user retention and onboarding. I later connected with Wes Bush, who wrote the book on product-led growth. We studied at the same university and ended up working together, leading to my book on the subject. That's my journey with product-led growth and user onboarding.

Check out: The Product-Led Podcast — the podcast Ramli co-hosts with Wes Bush.

Or visit onboardingteardowns.com — for Ramli’s onboarding reviews.

Ani: I remember meeting Wes at the conference too. He knows a lot about product growth. I also saw on your LinkedIn that you have experience with big companies like GoDaddy, Mixpanel, and Microsoft.

What shaped your approach to PLG, or what drove your evolution as a professional in the marketing and growth domain?

Ramli: Any specific research or the key factors that evolved my approach in this field?

Ani: What challenges did you face, and how did you navigate them in the first 30, 60, 90 days?

Ramli: At GoDaddy, I worked in-house, and Mixpanel was a client. A common challenge, especially as companies grow past 50 employees, is alignment. Alignment on what growth means—whether user growth or revenue growth—is crucial.

“If everyone isn't on the same page, efforts can become disjointed. Alignment of activation and data is also vital.”

Customer success, marketing, and product teams need to work towards the same goals. I'm a big fan of in-house workshops to ensure everyone is aligned, using tools like Miro or Post-it notes for brainstorming. Cross-functional collaboration is essential for product-led growth and onboarding initiatives; without it, progress can be hindered.

Ani: Growth sits between all of this as a foundational block, driving everything forward. You mentioned being cross-functional.

How do you manage that? How can companies be more cross-functional? What metrics should they share? Can they be more data-driven?

Ramli: That's a good question. There are multiple levels of being cross-functional. At the highest level, mature companies often have cross-functional squads. For example, Elena Verna, now head of growth at Dropbox, exemplifies this approach.

Her approach at Dropbox includes cross-functional squads for activation and retention, incorporating product growth, a copywriter, and a designer.

“Getting buy-in from top executives is crucial for this setup. For those who can't establish full squads, start by asking for cross-functional feedback early on.”

Involving other teams in the design, copy, or campaign stages prevents last-minute issues and fosters collaboration. Informal catch-ups on metrics across functions are also beneficial.

Cross-functional brainstorms, like those for defining activation, involve multiple teams using tools like Miro or in-person workshops with Post-it notes. These practices help build partnerships and improve communication between teams.

Ani: Got it. You wrote "Product-Led Onboarding" and frequently discussed onboarding on LinkedIn.

Could you explain what Product Adoption Indicators (PAIs) are and how they differ from traditional onboarding metrics? Are there other crucial onboarding metrics?

Ramli: The goal of onboarding is to build a habit for users. PAIs help measure when a habit is formed. This concept, borrowed from the former head of growth at Wave, helps determine when users have adopted the product. For example, it might take 2-3 times to do something to form a habit. Slack found that if a company sends 1,000 messages, they are 93% more likely to continue using Slack.

PAIs require data and correlation analysis, which many startups and B2B companies may lack. To keep it simple, identify a key action and encourage users to repeat it multiple times.

For instance, with Riverside, recording the first session is the activation moment. If a user records 2-3 sessions, it's a strong indicator they've adopted the product. PAIs signify that a habit is being formed by the user.

Ani: Right, wow. You also developed the QREKA framework for onboarding. Can you explain what it is and how companies use it to improve their onboarding process?

Ramli: The QREKA framework helps structure and improve onboarding. It’s an acronym:

Q: Create an Onboarding Team - Establishing an onboarding team is crucial.
U: Understand User Success - Start from the end, or reverse journey mapping, to know your destination.
R: Refine Metrics - Define product adoption indicators and activation moments.
E: Establish First Step Milestones - Identify and build initial milestones users need to achieve.
K: Keep Users Engaged - Implement strategies to keep users engaged both in and out of the product.
A: Apply and Repeat - Onboarding should be an iterative process with quick feedback loops, not a one-time setup. This aligns with the iterative experimental processes advocated by growth experts like Sean Ellis and Brian Balfour. Continuous improvement is key.

Ani: I agree. It’s challenging when the product evolves with new features.

How do you handle updating onboarding? Do you revamp everything or adjust metrics? What’s important in measuring success?

Ramli: Many companies face the challenge of bloated onboarding as they add new features. I recommend borrowing from video games, where onboarding happens in levels or stages.

For example, for a new user, focus on essential tasks like recording the first session (level one). Intermediate users might need features like integrating Stripe for payments (level two), while advanced users might benefit from more complex tools.

“Categorizing features into levels aligns with users’ journey stages and prevents overwhelming onboarding experiences.”

Onboarding is not just the first initial one. You're also onboarding other types of user in terms of where they are in their journey and stage.

Ani: Completely. Thinking about sales support, I love being able to talk to someone at HubSpot for startup discounts.

But with AI evolving rapidly, how do you see it enhancing onboarding and product growth? What advice do you have for companies integrating AI technologies?

Ramli: AI is ushering in hyper-personalization, as mentioned in a Miro presentation. AI can analyze user data and web behavior to predict intent and customize experiences. Currently, tools like AppCues, Pendo, and UserPilot require pre-mapping user journeys.

AI could automate this, tailoring onboarding paths based on user behavior. This would act like a coach, suggesting next steps and features, and fostering habit formation.

No current product fully does this, but the idea is to use AI to pull educational content, videos, help desk articles, and more, creating a personalized user experience based on individual learning habits and preferences.

Ani: I remember seeing a tweet, possibly from Greg Eisenberg or Peter Bianco, about using data like Spotify or YouTube history to craft hyper-personalized experiences, even for dating apps. AI can truly hyper-personalize for people.

With your experience consulting on onboarding and PLG, can you share a success story where effective onboarding significantly improved user retention and conversion rates?

Ramli: At AppCues, we experimented with breaking down our onboarding checklist into stages. Initially, our onboarding combined all steps into one checklist, leading to a 2% completion rate. We restructured it into two stages: the first focused solely on installing our builder, and the second on building and setting goals. This approach increased the completion rate from 2% to nearly 25%.

The key was simplifying the initial task to make it easy, leveraging the principle of consistency and commitment. By getting users to complete one simple task first, they were more likely to follow through with more complex ones. This staged approach dramatically improved our activation rate, demonstrating the power of breaking down onboarding into manageable steps.

Ani: I love psychology and its impact on user experience. The service recovery paradox is fascinating: presenting a broken product initially and then fixing it, creating a "wow" effect for users when they see the improved version.

Now, moving towards the final questions, what future trends do you see emerging in PLG, onboarding, and user growth?

Ramli: Given the current economic climate, there's a strong focus on efficiency and profitability. One trend is the reverse free trial, where users get a free trial first, and if they don't upgrade, they switch to freemium. This approach often asks for a credit card upfront, increasing conversion rates. This trend reflects a broader focus on optimizing conversion and profitability.

Despite economic improvements, I'm bullish on the enduring relevance of product-led growth. Another trend is integrating sales into the PLG model without annoying users. This is particularly challenging for B2B companies. AI can play a crucial role here, not just for tasks like copywriting or image generation, but for analyzing data to determine the best moments for sales outreach.

“AI can predict optimal touch points, enhancing the user experience by making interactions more timely and personalized.”

This hyper-personalization, driven by AI, will be a significant trend in improving user retention and growth strategies.

Ani: That's fantastic, Ramli! I'm sure our audience will be excited to hear about your upcoming book on user delight. It's a crucial topic that aligns perfectly with what we've discussed today. We'll keep an eye out for your updates on LinkedIn.

Thank you so much for joining us today and sharing your insights. It's been incredibly valuable and enlightening.

Epilogue

Ramli provides key recommendations for founders aiming to enhance their user onboarding:

Takeaway #1: Alignment on growth goals and activation data is crucial as companies grow.

Takeaway #2: Early involvement of different teams in design and campaign stages prevents issues and enhances collaboration.

Takeaway #3: AI can enhance user experiences by predicting optimal touchpoints for sales outreach, making interactions more timely and personalized.